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sheep2580

Sighting

This sounds really stupid but here goes,
I shoot using a scope and peep sight. I have no problem lining the two up but for some reason I am unable to sight on gold, i am usually around mid red at 12 o'clock.
One of the other archers at the club has just got through a period of doing this but can't explain how.
Any ideas of how to get sighted on gold or do i just have to force myself until i feel comfortable?
Ratfighter

I'm afraid it sounds like a bit of the old Target panic. I suffered this really badly last year. There are so many variations on the theme that sorting this out could be a job for a proper coach.
A few things to think about.
Do you use a pin or a circle? Using a pin can cause difficulties in placing it on a spot.
Do you focus on the target or the sight? Focusing on the sight can really cause issues with aiming
Do you draw up aiming on the target? if not you can set yourself up wrong and physically find it difficult to move from where you land on the face (although this is usually through drawing up low as it is always easier to drop down the target)
Do you have a set routine you follow for every shot? Quite simply you should have!

I think you have made the classic error or trying to learn to aim rather than trying to learn how to shoot.

If you have no coach near, then feel free to pm me and we can go through your issues, otherwise I am sure there are many on here who can offer advice
Liam

If your ok with sharing this with us sheep and ratty I wouldn't mind seeing any communication on this, it may be of help to some of us, if you'd rather pm it sheep feel free to do so
Ratfighter

I'm ok with this in the forum, I just wondered if it might get too rambly / diverse. Target Panic is a horrible experience and a lot of archers are even frightened to read about it for fear of catching it. (Maybe the first sign of having it, it was for me)
There are so many variations, from doing a hit and run on the target to freezing completely with "that'll do", somewhere in the middle.
Think how many excuses you have heard from, I always do that on the Fox, to I always flinch at least once a competition.

So far this week, mine have been I can't hit the bottom target and I'm forward loosing but I know with a bit of blank baling I'll sort the release out and I'm still puzzling over my poor first arrow performance
Liam

I know I suffer from target panic, got into the habit of bringing the bow down now when panic sets in, but it still does get me every now and then.

I used to and sometimes still do draw below the gold and struggle getting it up (oooh errrr missus) into the gold, my draw is now becoming a habit again, draw high then drop into the gold, still havnt mastered drawing on the gold yet, things are improving slowly though

Suppose I was in denial by not calling it target panic
geoffretired

I had the TP you describe. It only lasted 14 years!!
That is not a misprint. It is not designed to set fear into any hearts either.
It lasted that long because it took that long to find the right advice. Guess how long the RIGHT cure took??
The cure started to work within 10minutes and the time to refine it was about two weeks.
How long the refining process takes is down to how often you are able to shoot and how many arrows you can shoot in those sessions.
Another feature that influences the refining process is what kind of shooting you do. I gave up all shooting apart from the refining process. I have seen others who gave one session to the cure, then the next three were given over to shooting rounds and/or competitions. That simply undid all the earlier good work. In the end, that gave them the impression that the cure wasn't working. It does work! Even after 14 years; there is real life after TP.
Liam

What was your cure Geoff???
segolden

All that you guys have discussed here is indeed "target panic", what we in the combat pistol sports called "duffing". The conscious mind is demanding control over the subconscious mind's efforts, which results in a "short circuit" effect. You have to teach your self that it doesn't have to control everything, to have confidence in your form. Pre-competition positive visualization helps, so does pure blank-bale shooting. The easiest method is, if you feel your form is basically correct, to simply take the sight off and shoot for a while. Archery is like any other physical activity, 90% of it is done without conscious control. Once you see that you can do well without it, habits will carry over to shooting with it normally. Take a week off and you'll see a difference.  
geoffretired

A little background first if I may, just to set the scene.
Target panic is picked up like other bad habits and good habits.
We learn how to change gears and tie laces; by first working at getting it right, then leaving the subconscious to remember the moves so we can get on with other things.
The subconscious will learn anything, good or bad, if not watched!!!
I can spell CLICKER accurately when written with a pencil. If I type it, without looking at the keys it comes out as clckcier, with annoying regularity. My subconscious has learnt the moves.I didn't watch the keys carefully enough when I was first typing it in a hurry.
If you drive a manual geared car, and you get into an automatic, you have to learn a new way of handling the gears. Most of the driving is exactly the same.
Likewise with TP. Most of the shot sequence will stay the same; the aiming section will need to be changed and RE-LEARNT.
To relearn the aiming section requires a sight and something to aim at.
When learning something different, it is wise to work in small steps and make each one easy from the start.
To make the aiming process less stressful, use a very large, simple sight aperture and aim at a small spot at close range. The first shots need to be done with the large aperture round the small spot. That is fairly easy as there seems to be a lot of room round the spot; the bow arm and sight can wobble with fear, but you can keep the ring round the spot.
It is not important to keep the spot central in the ring; just inside anywhere.
If the release goes before the ring gets round the spot, try again. It is vital to get one shot away that matches the criterion; sight round the spot. Shoot arrows in three's. Note how the successes start to increase! Success is only measured as sight round spot; nothing else matters.
There is more, but that is details compared to the first stage.
I'm happy to post the rest or PM anyone who wants to know more. It is not rocket science, is it?
sheep2580

geoffretired, thanks. I think I will try shooting without the dot in the middle of my scope.
I currently have a circle with a small dot in the middle

Ratfighter, my shot sequence:
Nock arrow,
Attatch release aid,
look at gold,
draw,
position peep in line with sight,
wrap middle finger around trigger,
move sight as close to gold as i can (usually 12 o'clock red as said)
increase back pressure on release until it goes (whilst trying to bring the bow down to gold)

I believe, having thought about it, that i might be focussing on the sight instead of the target.
When i draw i am looking at the target and bring the bow into line with where i am looking.
Ratfighter

First things first,
I suggested finding a coach because if you are overdrawing you will find it very hard to move around the target. I ca't tell from here if this is the case but if you read John Dudley, he states the nock should not come past the corner of your mouth. Bernie Pellerite states than the majority of compound archers are over drawing. The biggest cause of poor performance is ill matched equipment.

On to target panic
This is something that doesn't really go away, but once you learn how to treat it and then how to spot it you can put yourself back on the straight and narrow with nothing much more than a couple of blank baling sessions
Forget shooting at a target for now, this is doing you no good. I took Segoldens advice and also bought the Pellerite book and was on the road that Geoffretired mentioned within 10 pages.

It is that easy, you drive your car without noticing how many gearchanges you make. You put your socks on without even noticing which went on first. The subconscious is a marvellous thing. If you asked your concious mind to control breathing you would be dead by ten o'clock and yet it is also a mardy bugger. As soon as the concious mind asks to take over, it folds it's arms and says "go on try it" then gloats when you get it wrong.

The hard bit is for you conscious mind to believe that your subconscious knows what it is doing. By taking your shot routine apart and removing the ego side of shooting ( " look at my fantastic 6 gold end!". You can begin to trust your subconscious shot routine. When you develop that trust, then you can introduce aiming, but this is done at really short distance, gradually moving back and all the time establishing a good working relationship with both parts of your mind.

This is the cure, I'm still not quite there yet but I am 100 times better than I was.

My best advice,
Buy the book, not only is it full of good ideas, it also helps you understand your body and how you work with it to develop simple repeatable actions, only repetition will give consistency. Tony Weston at the Archery company stocks the book, give him a call
Second accept that you are 6 weeks away from shooting, if you can't accept this, you're not ready for the cure
Third, if you can't resist the temptation to join friends, use a wooden bow with no sights, shoot instinctive and have fun fetching your arrows out of the scenery.

There are some top people on here, Segolden, Steve B,  and the newly joined Geoffretired, who understand where you are at and will help as will I

Hope this is a start.


Liam,
trying to draw ono the target is a mistake in my opinion, it had me fooled for a while. I draw up with the target in my scope all the way from the start but I put it in the Blue / red at 12. I settle into my shot and my arm lowers into the gold. Trying to draw up on the gold will find you at 6 o clock every time and it is really hard to move up. If I find my self low on the target now, I come down , simple as that!
geoffretired

A very interesting point brought out by Ratfighter i.e. target panic never really goes away.
That is true. When you are "cured" you will have two ways to shoot. Like the car driver who can drive manual or auto gears has two ways to drive. Get in the car, look at the gear type and select the driving that goes with it.
So it is with TP. You can choose the old TP style or the new one that you have worked on and learnt well
If the two are very similar, separating them can be a problem. If the new one isn't well learnt, separating them will be all but impossible.
I have shot for two years now without TP. Totally cured??? Not at all!But I am not worried by that.
Out of curiosity, I went back to my old wrist strap release aid.( I chose to use a hand held thumb trigger release for the new style, to help separate the two. )
Within one end, I was back to being unable to put the sight in the gold.
Used the hand held again and I was back into my new routine; first arrow.It's my choice; I choose not to use the old release or the TP style associated with it. I'd be silly to go that way, yes?
Ratfighter

I shot wrist release but found that it was too easy for my conscious mind to control. I couldn't shoot pure back tension, my conscious mind kept ringing my subconscious asking when it was going to shoot the arrow.
I shoot a zero travel thumb release. My conscious is happy it can stop my sub conscious, my subconscious is happy to keep on pulling to the shot happens. It is working so far and when it doesn't, I pull out another release and confuse myself for a while.
geoffretired

Ratfighter it seems we have much in common; in release aids for one.
Going back to Sheep's difficulty(temporary)
When I was given the ingredients of the "Cure" it came with instruction on how to take the medicine. These instructions proved to be as important as the medicine itself.
Ratfighter has already mentioned one; be prepared to give up 6 weeks etc.
If you are not; you don't want the cure badly enough.
The other was this. Be prepared to go to competitions and come last; but stick to your new routine.
The advice I was given was so convincing, I shot at 5yds in front of all my clubmates. A bit of a come down, as they were all shooting 20y at indoor rounds; plus I'm the club coach. I was supposed to be showing them how to shoot!!
Still, after 14 years that wasn't much of an effort; I knew it was working and how much better than TP cannot be explained in words.
Liam

The Ratfighter wrote:

Liam,
trying to draw ono the target is a mistake in my opinion, it had me fooled for a while. I draw up with the target in my scope all the way from the start but I put it in the Blue / red at 12. I settle into my shot and my arm lowers into the gold. Trying to draw up on the gold will find you at 6 o clock every time and it is really hard to move up. If I find my self low on the target now, I come down , simple as that!



Liam wrote:
still havnt mastered drawing on the gold yet, things are improving slowly though



I shalln't bother mastering that bit then

Great thread this, its explaining many things to me, I have been blank bailing over winter, just to try and settle into a shot routine rather than cure TP, it has helped though and I shall continue drawing high
Ratfighter

sheep2580 wrote:
geoffretired, thanks. I think I will try shooting without the dot in the middle of my scope.
I currently have a circle with a small dot in the middle

Ratfighter, my shot sequence:
Nock arrow,
Attatch release aid,
look at gold,
draw,
position peep in line with sight,
wrap middle finger around trigger,
move sight as close to gold as i can (usually 12 o'clock red as said)
increase back pressure on release until it goes (whilst trying to bring the bow down to gold)

I believe, having thought about it, that i might be focussing on the sight instead of the target.
When i draw i am looking at the target and bring the bow into line with where i am looking.


I missed a couple of things when reading your post, sorry it was some Bavarian beer, but also an indication of how the subconscious works at times.

My shot sequence is this
Attitude:        feet positioning / attitude to target
Attach:          nock, attach release
Approach:      raise bowarm and place scope at 12 oclock blue / red
Draw                Draw keeping target in the scope all the time. ensure joints are bone on bone solid but muscularly relaxed (really hard to describe)

Settle:   Sight through peep, watch the scope naturaly fall to the gold, engage the release
Check :      Final check that I feel happy to commit to the shot, do I feel right, hands, feet body, (does this feel the same?)
Commit   :   Commit to the shot whilst aiming the ring on the gold
Follow Through:    Visualise my release hitting my shoulder and watch the gold until I hear a thud
Somewhere in between my shot goes off.


I am not sure where the middle finger comes into the trigger equation but the fingers are very senstive and directly attached to your conscious mind for obvious reasons. As soon as you start an automated action, it goes running to your brain and says "We are about to shoot the arrow", the conscious then says "I'll see about that " and whilst you should be totally focussed on the gold, your head is arguing with its self.

I use a thumb release, although it is rather misnamed as the "trigger" fits at the root of my thumb, where there is very little feeling. Small movements go undetected and no warning over ride can occur.

I would consider moving the setting the release part of your sequence up, so that once you have the peep in the scope, all you have to do is check and commit to the shot.
Finally . You mention bringing the bow into line whilst aiming, with a correct shot sequence the bow should already be in line set on the gold and waiting for you.

There you go, loads to think about and all probably a bit daunting but, I'm sure you will find that the answers are so blindingly obvious, it is an easy process to follow.
sheep2580

There is a lot but (hopefully) when i have practiced enough i will be comfortable with my shot and shooting to a higher standard than before i asked my question.
My middle finger comes into because i use a wrist release and curl my index finger round and place it on my jaw bone and my middle finger is on the trigger.
I feel that its more comfortable than using my index on the trigger.
You say that I should already have the bow in line, do you mean that i should look through the scope then align the peep with that?

Thanks so much for the advice and I hope its helping others as much as it is helping me.
Ratfighter

Sorry for the delay in replying. We had guests over Saturday and out all Sunday.

Firstly I’ve never seen anyone use a finger trigger in your way, so I can’t comment on the effectiveness, however it must surely put the release off line with your face and cause you to lean your head. Interesting concept though.

As said before though, a finger release will not help cure TP, it will make it worse.

As for lining up the scope. There is some good you tube footage of Chris White shooting, watch this with my comments in mind and it will be far clearer than words alone. I watch the target through the scope as I draw and as I set myself for the shot I fall in line with the peep.
I keep all movement to the minimum, you probably get 7 seconds of good strong aiming, I think it best to use as much of the 7 good seconds actually aiming.
sheep2580

I have now had my style checked by Custom Built Archery in Nottingham, apparently my draw length was short so we lengthed it and now i can anchor the string on my mouth corner and nose, it helps and i was told that the way i release is fine as long as i am sure i am always in a straight line and it feels comfortable.
I haven't cracked the aiming on gold but 4/6 shots it does wander onto gold so things are improving slowly:)
Thanks for all your input, its helped loads
fred

Try not shooting for the spot.Pick a spot the biggest part of the target are If an animal face the head. Your scores will drop but you may find that you will in time come back to the kill or spot automatic.
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