Shooting off the shelf

chrispmoore · Shooting off the shelf

Opinions on shooting off the shelf please. Am thinking I'd like to remove my rest and try it, but I'd like to know which is best, and also what material would anyone recommend for sticking to the shelf and with what.

segolden

By no means am I an expert, but what I've learned from a bit of experience is that "off the shelf" has certain advantages, one being the wide range of angles at which the bow can be held when in difficult field positions. A rest requires the bow be always vertical when drawn, otherwise any cant may throw arrows right or left unpredictably. The rest has the advantage of being easier to tune with adjustable mechanisms, and feathers are not necessarily required as fletching.

Shelf material is as varied as simple rug fragments to hook-and-latch to seal fur, depends on what you can afford rather than the materials themselves. The biggest issue is whether the bow is center-cut, past center or before-center. You'll need to build up a bit of material on the side of the riser in order to tune your arrows, which will take some time to play with and get right, but that's the only complication I've noted. Just a matter of try something and see if it works.

Milvus · shelf covering

Until recently I have used calf hair which usually comes with a sticky back from most traditional archery stores, try Flybow. I now use Velcro,

yes Velcro, buy a strip of stickyback inch wide Velcro, cut a piece of suitable size from the smooth side and stick on your shelf, works a treat

and is a lot cheaper than calf hair and lasts longer.

chrispmoore

Can you elaborate on cut center/past/before please?

Liking the velcro idea. Guy at my club showed me a seal fur one and mentioned snake skin. He was all about how great it was - but funny thing; I was more on target and grouping better on the range than he was that day. Goes to show how one assumes the best makes the best but not always

segolden

Hold up your bow and look at it from along the string, which for this purpose I'll refer to as the center line. Most bows today have a "window" cut out of the riser, allowing the arrow shaft to rest more of less near the vertical center line of the bow on a shelf, as you look out along the shaft. Many metal or alloy risers have a very large window which, if there wasn't an adjustable rest mounted through the riser, would allow the shaft to lay at an angle past the centerline. More traditional recurves, flatbows and longbows either have a narrower shelf or no shelf at all, like the classic selfbows and English longbows. Generally, the closer the arrow shaft lays in line with the center of the riser and string (center-cut), the less problems tuning the arrow, and the less flexing (archer's parallax) the arrow does when the string is released.

chrispmoore

I've started shooting off the shelf as of today. I built up the shelf a little using a small piece of electrical wire under the material on both the shelf and the vertical of the riser (as suggested by the man in Wales archery who I asked about it). I adjusted the nock point to account for the arrow sitting lower than it used to in the rest (only needed to go about 1/8-2/8 inch lower). But every shot now hits at more of a downward angle and definitely leaves the bow with more wobble than previously.

Is this just something I'll start adjusting for myself in time, or have I made some error in the process of making the change?

Dawn

Hi chrispmoore

It sound like your arrow wobble is up and down which may be caused by your nocking point being too high or too low, (from what you say I would think its a bit too high) try putting a temporary nocking point on and try it, this way you can keep moving it slightly until your arrows are flying straight, a good way to do this is use something like insulation tape and just put one nocking point above your arrow nock. When you are happy with where it is then put your usual nocking point on your string.

Another thing is are you using feather fletchings ? If you shoot off the shelf feather fletchings collapse as they pass the bow riser, plastic don't and can cause this problem.

Hope this helps

geoffretired

Many years ago , I was told that some archers used part of the head of a toothbrush.
It was stuck on with the bristles pointing upwards and the lengths trimmed to give a shallow V. As they come in different stiffnesses there will be opportunity for experiment.

chrispmoore

I am using plastic fletchings. I can see the lower flexability in them could cause a slight bounce as they pass. Was hoping the cord under the leather shelf was high enough to cause minimum contact of fletching to shelf on the pass through. I might need to build it up some more or maybe switch to the velcro idea as the hairs on the velcro should provide some extra height without making it too hard.

I'll try a lower nock too. I must have been using the T-square tool incorrectly. How does one use it?

Desert Archer

Dawn

chrispmoore

Well thats annoying then. I was looking forward to being able to have more maneuverability by shooting off the shelf. And nocking the arrows felt so much smoother and faster without the rest. I've got 36 Jazz arrows, and have never been keen on switching to wood or making them myself.

The guys at my club (well, former club as havent had time to get out there so I didnt renew this year yet) didnt mention arrow type with shelf shooting - bugger.

Maybe I should switch to a higher grade rest? I have incredibly limited knowledge on rests as always hoped to switch.

Dawn

chrispmoore

How does the ZL81 Spigarelli flip attach? Only having had the basic cartel one whihc is sticky tape style, I would assume the threaded hole in my riser is the attachment point for a rest, but the ZL81 Spigarelli flip doesnt look like it has a screw mechanism.

Dawn

Hi Chrispmoore sorry if I have confused you

The ZL81 Spigarelli flip is stuck on with double sided sticky tape as are most of the other rests, the hole in the bow riser is for a button or rest and button combined.
On my recurve I use the ZL81 with the metal support (with the sticky tape on) under the spring that supports the arrow, this is fitted so the spring sits just below the hole in the riser, there is only the thin spring in contact with the arrow.
I also have a button which keeps my arrow the correct distance from the upright part of the riser, buttons are adjustable to line up your arrow but also they are spring loaded and the amount of pressure is also adjustable, you do not have to use a button you can line your arrow up by padding out the riser as I think you have already done

Hope this makes sense

and is useful to you

chrispmoore

I think I get how it sits. I'm not sure I understand the magnetic aspect of many rests though. The only magnetic component of an arrow of any material is the head. So I dont really get how magnetism is of any use.

Dawn

Mjollnir

A magnetic rest, is not magnetised for the arrow, but the rest itself.

On magnetic rests, the rest arm is usually hinged, and capable of collapsing away when the fletchings of the arrow hit it. This helps arrow clearance, and reduces the effect the rest has on the flight of the arrow. The magnet is merely there to hold the rest in the out position while you draw your bow.

Mjollnir

Chedawan

If you do end up going the more expensive route, I'll back MJ's shout, I have the same rest and it's great. I shoot a lot of target archery with big volumes of arrows coming off of my rest in a single session, as opposed to one or two (three if it's one of those damned red squirrels!

) every five to ten minutes for a few hours in field archery, and found that the stick on rests would tend to tear off after just a few sessions (say three or so Fita or York rounds) and they were getting expensive to keep replacing maybe two a month (of course your mileage may vary). Not had a problem with this rest at all. However if you only shoot field, I would go with Dawn's suggestion, they are a lot lighter, and easily replaced on the move, if mine breaks going round a field course at some point, that will basically be me out of the competition. I just think they don't seem to like the volumes of arrows going through them in quick succession.... of course... it may just've been me

Dawn

Thanks for the explination MJ

Must admit because I shoot field I didn't think of you shooting so many arrows chrispmoore

If this is the case I think you have some good advice here on alternative rests, these guys have tested them

Chedawan

Just out of interest, where did you buy your rest MJ? had a bit of dificulty tracking mine down!

chrispmoore

I shoot field too. On the range at the woods I guess I'd probably shoot 100 arrows or so before I have to be heading off (girlfriend commitments) and I'd go round the 40 target course once, so anything up to a couple hundred there if I'm off that day.
But for me, learning archery is about learning a skill and making myself better at it in all aspects. So I'm trying to keep the gadgetry down to a minimum. So I gave up on sights after about three sessions and switched to instinct (grouping improved immediately there), and I thought it'd help with angle shots in the woods if I didnt have to worry about the arrow falling off a rest. Having learned from you guys here however, it seems a lot more complicated and I think it'd help my overall improvement if I let a rest remove the problem of fletching lift.

So would all so far agree on the ZL81 Spigarelli flip being a good reasonably priced one for a guy who doesnt want bells and whistles and changing modes and stuff?

Mjollnir

chrispmoore

I suppose I should mention I'm still using my Quicks bought trainer recurve. I know many rest types say they fit certain types, so I wouldnt want to go a mess up there.

Mjollnir

That particular model looks like a stick on job, so yes it should fit ok to a wooden trainer bow.

bear in mind the "ZL81" is just a quicks product code, not a model number. Just in case you are not ordering from quicks.

Chedawan

Agreed, it's as good a rest to start out with as any!

Bushy

although I agree with some of the comments I have tried a number of different arrow rests and have always gone back to the spigi flip and i know dawn uses one on her kg1 as well they are a really good starter rest and find then good even now in fact I have got one on my bow that I am taking to scotland for the scottish champs next week

chrispmoore

Thanks guys.
I ordered the Spigarelli flip from Quicks last night. Got another bowstring while I was at it as for £1.95 postage, you really need to make the order worth it.
So when I stick it on, I still need to build up the vertical of the riser a bit yes?

Mjollnir

chrispmoore

When I was switching to rest-less, the gy in Wales Archery told me a lot of people make the mistake first time of building up the shelf so there is good clearance for the arrow, but the dont bother with the vertical section so the fletching fully hit the vertical of the cut out section when they pass. With a rest like this, will it provide clearance for the arrow both in the horizontal (which it would cos it sits on it), and the vertical (which maybe it doesnt without a button)

Mjollnir

Ah now I understand.

Er yes, without the use of a button you might have clearance issues between the fletchings and the verticle. One technique I have used before to check this is a very light coating of talc/flour ont he verticle, shoot and then look for marks in the talk/flour.

I don't know what disipline you shoot, but why not fit a cheap pressure button?

Bushy

it is true if there is not much clearance you will not get a clean shot one of the options is to fit a cheap pressure button of which there are a number of I prefer the Shibuya DX although there are a few about including the cartel which is very reasonable.

The other option that I have done in the past with a lot of my bows when shooting them off the shelf is a kit thats about £2 made by martin archery that is a leather or rug rest which I stick to the side of the riser to help protect the riser and aid clearance isssues

If you dont mind me asking what type of bow are we looking at???? As if it is a one piece wooden bow then it is most likely that the arrow shelf is cut to cnetre in otherwords to cut out is in the middle o the bow so a pressure button is not needed on the other hand on some of the metals handled recurves then it is advisable to shoot it off a rest with a button as to be able to get a centre shot system

chrispmoore

Its a Quicks take down trainer bow. I dont think I'll upgarde until I've improved my overall shooting and gone up a couple lbs in draw weight. Even then I dont wanna go nuts with bows.
Though a suggestion of the next one I should go for of reasonable price thats take down but clean looking wouldnt be unwelcome

Mjollnir

Bushy

they are a good little bow and would probably suggest getting a cheap pressure button which would improve your shooting

Dawn

You don't have to use a button if you dont want to, you could go back to the padding out you described in a previous post on this thread, it may take a bit of trial and error to get it right but it should work

chrispmoore

Well, I setup my new Spig flip rest yesterday evening and strung my bow with the new 12 strand that came at the same time (Quicks included a 10 strand when I first bought the bow), and wouldnt you know it - even without a button or padding the vertical my grouping AND accuracy improved vastly.

Mjollnir

That is good news

glad you got things sorted

Dawn

Great news

Now just go and enjoy it

Remember to keep us up to date though wont you

AFB

Great News .Go and enjoy

Chedawan

Good stuff, always nice when that happens isn't it?!?

chrispmoore

Now if I can just find enough free time to justify rejoining my local field club to try at a good distance rather than making do with shooting at home...

Shooting off the shelf

shelf covering