Scope question

Liam · Scope question

I know nothing about these things other than there are good ones and not so good ones apparently, IF* I get a new sight I shall go for a scope as well, but im getting confused with all the magnification numbers and what not, so perhaps someone could advise me as to a decent mid range scope suitable for field and target.

* yeah right

we all know I'll end up with one soon

Ratfighter

It's one of those long answer things again

In an earlier post regarding stabilsers I mentioned it was one area of archery where the more you pay doesn't mean the more you get. Unfortunately sighting is probably the one area where you do get what you pay for. In the same way that you can buy a pair of cheap reading glasses and they'll do a job, they won't compare to pair bought from an opiticians.
I have tried the majority of scopes and can comment on the build quality but like a pair of glasses, what suits me may not suit you.
The first consideration is the shooting you are doing. If it is target a smaller scope housing is usually preferred. This allows accurate centreing and a smaller peep aperture. This isn't the best option for field as you can lose your place on the target as you fish about trying towork out where to shoot. However a larger bodied scope housing requires a larger peep and this can lead to a lack of definition. A further problem is that not all bows readily accommodate the larger sight window, which in turn leads to clipping of the scope circle.
The next consideration is the lens power. Confusingly some manufacturers measure this in powers and others in diopters. My understanding is that .5 is around 2x and .75 around 3x, although I am happy to stand corrected. With any lens the distance your eye is from it affects its' performance. The general rule of thumb is that a 2x does very litte, a 4x magnifies well but accentuates shake and the 3x drops in the middle. I have found a 3 works best for me but many others prefer the 4 and put up with any additional shake.
The next consideration is how you prefer to aim. There are numerous options from centre drilled to accept a fibre optic, a circle or spot stuck to the lens, a pin, a cross hair and even a super magnified spot in the centre of the lens which acts in the way an eagles eye works. (this is supposed to help target panic and has a number of devotees). After trying most options I use a fibre optic pin and a circle.
The last option is lens quality. Again there are numerous options. The highest price ones use plano glass, the cheapest use perspex. I found concave glass would reflect badly. The plano lenses are flat and don't cause that kind of issue. I don't really consider pespex a viable option.
Here is a brief run down of the scopes I have tried.

Beiter 0.39. A smallish body, very nice quality lens (zeiss) and a multitude of pin, crosshair ring options. as it is a modular design, you can collect the combinations and realy get a set up you like. The down sides were I had trouble locating where I was on a field target, although I did evolve a different technique to get round this. The pin, wasn't fibre optic and the scope blacked out easily in low light conditions and being a drilled lens, It wasn't easy to just drop the lens out when it was raining. It was possible to remove the lens replace with a cross hair but not something you want to be doing on the peg with bored archers watching!

Millennium Bulls Eye Grande. Didn't get on with this one at all. Fibre optic pin was very fragile and easily lost or broken, bent etc. The scope housing was too big to get a consistent centre and the concave lens used to reflect my face back at me when the sun was from behind.

Cartel. again a drilled centre, EXCELLENT price but quite blurry. If an archer was coming off pins onto a scope, I'm not sure this scope would build confidence.

Viper. This is the scope I use now, so I'm probably a bit prejudiced. The build quality is excellent. The lens is a plano, antiscratch affair. It is a pin mount, which can be set at 4 different place. The fibre optic is 2 feet long, intensely bright and well protected by the design. The body is a good size but I do have a bit of sight window clipping and whilst not excessivley clear (a combination of large peep and failing eyesight) I can pick out the holes in the target I wish to aim for, even if I can't define the lines on a paper face. At £96 , they are well priced for the quality.

Una Vita has a classic scope coming, retailing at £150, with hydrophobic coatings, antiscratch, antiglare, a multitude of pin and cross hair options, I'm looking forward to trying it. If it is better suited to my eyesight and set up I would have no hesitation in paying the money to upgrade. There is nothing more annoying in archery than shooting that perfect shot, exactly where you were aiming, only to find it was in the wrong place. A good scope should prevent that!

hope this helps!!

Liam

There's a bit to take in there

have Merlin got plenty in stock that I can road test

Ratfighter

I started this on the train, and had to post it on here from my pda before I could finish it, so there is now even more to take in!!!

The short answer is , buy the best you can afford. Archers are always looking for better equipment and there are always bargains to be had on fleabay and other internet based sites. there might even be a viper available if I like the classic!! I would take a second hand decent scope over a budget new one, anytime.

segolden

Not that I know a thing about what you guys are talking about here, but I found that optical sights, with a point/dot/cross that one centers on a target, tend to focus the shooter's attention on the sight's objective instead of the target, exaggerates shake, and can cover the point of a distant target you're trying to hit.

In tank gunnery, one learns to put the circle around the spot on the target one wants to hit, not focus on the circle itself. Military optics for rifles are beginning to use circles instead of crosshairs or dots, and I've seen archery scopes with the same setup. Not sure this is available, but I know the SRF works on this same principle without a scope lens involved. I shake like a bad itch with pins, but hardly at all now. If I could've found a two-or-three-power archery scope using a simple circle, I'd have probably went with that, considering my own experience with small arms.

Ratfighter

segolden

Wow, maybe I can figure this game yet.

Ratfighter

I'm sure you had it figured out years ago

Steve B

Ratfighter I am going to disagree a bit here as scopes run on diopter.. .25 is generally associated with 2 x , .5 diopter is 4 x and .75 is 6 x. I use 6 x as I find that for my tired eyes it brings the target to where I can see it, I have managed to get minimal shakes with using the 6 x , I use that for both field and indoor.

To me a huge consideration is the peep size I like to be able to see a very small amount of light around the body of the scope when I have it centred in the peep. A huge thing is the smaller the peep the less light, this can cause a grey fuzziness to occur, so in some ways the bigger the peep the more light more clear a picture. The other thing is that if the picture is to blurry you can put a clarfiyer or rectifier I think they are called. I am lucky and dont need either.

I use a Tutan target scope, the body is 1 3/8" in diameter and the peep I use is a fletcher with a 0.50 thousands of an inch hole.

If you want to know more about lense power and diopter look
Here

As to what you prefer to use, I think it depends on what sort of person you are, if you are a controlling sort of person then a dot is best, if you are trusting soul then a circle is good, just remember Liam if you shoot lots of animal targyes , what good is a circle going to be when you have nothing definitive to aim at?

Just my take on scopes I know that the Titan target scope cost me AUD $150 and I am very pleased with the clarity and non reflective Hoya coating that it has.

Ratfighter

Diopters still confuse me as they refer to focal lengths, but how can they know what distance you are extending it from the peep and eye?
Anyway, no worries Steve.
Scopes are a very personal choice as you say. I think that's the reason so many people swap scopes so often. I couldn't hold a 4 power still enough not to rush the shot the second the target passed through the lens, The 3x works better for me as I feel less rushed with the shot! I've tried clarifiers and have yet to find one that works for my eyes, the last one provided 6 pins and a beautful petal effect for the rings, very nice but useless for aiming!
I'm going to see if I can find a titan on the net

Steve B

If you click on the link I provided, it has info from the ASA within the thread and the site actually will be able to point you to a titan scope as well, If I maybe of assistance let me know I can help out ....

Titan link

Steve B

Ratfighter

I like to keep everything as simple as possible. My feelings is that the power description is less confusing, everyone understands that 4x is more powerful than 3x and so on. But some manufacturers choose to use the diopter system I mentioned this to prevent confusion and probably caused more, especially to myself by the looks of it

I still stand by my belief that in sighting you buy the best you can afford. I had a look at the titan scope, Quicks have them in their catalogue but no price is shown. At around $150aus, that would fit in between the Cartel and the Beiter and they appear to have a long list of pro shooters. Could well be worth a look!!

Ratfighter

One scope I was trying to get my head round was the true spot
www.truespotscopes.com
This does away with any kind of reference point in the scope and works by having a higher powered magnification in the centre and plain glass outside. From what I have read, you aim at the target, the bit that is enlarged is the bit you are aiming at,
The blurb claims it prevents target panic. It kind of sounds ok, With no magnification to the outside, framing the target would be easy, therefore allowing a seriously high magnification to pinpoint where you are aiming without the struggle to hols a pin on the target. But on the downside, when the scope blacks out in low light, would you be able to pinpoint where you are aiming?
Any thoughts?

Steve B

I have had my eye on those for a while now and I love the concept, as the brain is very good at aligning the the scope and the aiming point (much better than I can) , my but, has been can my controlling mind cope with no dot ? and even more can I trust my subconcious to do the job? I know I can trust my subconcious but my concious mind says no, so I am happy to run with my titan and dot at the moment, as I am used to that and am now able to look through the dot and stare and concentrate on the point I want to hit, don't need to steer the dot to were I want to hit

So in the cause of my hip pocket, I am not going to by one....

Liam

I like the concept of that, not sure if it would be the best move for me though, then again having never used a dot or circle maybe it would be easier for me to adapt to it

I will more than likely end with whatever comes up at the right price first, looking at spending no more than £80 if I can, what with the recent Davis purchase and the pending Merlin Multi rod

Ratfighter

Liam

Liam

segolden

Hmmm...I wonder what the results have been with putting truespots on target recurves? I've toyed with the idea of using 3D scopes in the field, only problem being the expense, but my eyesight will never be better, so I'm curious about it as a solution for future issues. Some people over here use scopes for hunting for the same reasons.

P.S.: I put this concept up on a US forum to see what I can find out about it. I'll put the feedback up here if I get anything useful.

Steve B

segolden, we had (had to stop due to a very poor shoulder) a hunter and a very good one at that over her and he put a scope on his hunting recurve, the sight he use was

It works well as you can adjust it quickly for the distance you are shooting and it also has the added benefit of magnifying the quarry

I see no reason why it would not work on a recurve and help us poor old blokes with failing eye sight out

segolden

Nice setup! This is looking (excuse the pun) more interesting, going to have to do more research on hunting scope use. Feedback I've gotten here is either negative, contradictory or just plain scarce for some reason. I'll try most anything that'll keep me shooting for a few more years.

Liam

Well I've plumped for the 4x titan, and theres a nice little brochure on the quicks website too

I was very tempted with the truespot, but wasnt sure so went for the titan as the safer option, got a bit confussed with the lens specs on the truespot website, love their engraving service though

maybe next time eh

segolden

Yeesh, the scope on that target Illusion I tried out yesterday was a Titan, crosshair-with-dot three-power. Little more magnification than I liked, but very nice indeed. Good choice, Liam.