Shooting off the shelf

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chrispmoore
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: Shooting off the shelf

Opinions on shooting off the shelf please. Am thinking I'd like to remove my rest and try it, but I'd like to know which is best, and also what material would anyone recommend for sticking to the shelf and with what.

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segolden
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Location: Willcox, Arizona, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject:

By no means am I an expert, but what I've learned from a bit of experience is that "off the shelf" has certain advantages, one being the wide range of angles at which the bow can be held when in difficult field positions. A rest requires the bow be always vertical when drawn, otherwise any cant may throw arrows right or left unpredictably. The rest has the advantage of being easier to tune with adjustable mechanisms, and feathers are not necessarily required as fletching. Shelf material is as varied as simple rug fragments to hook-and-latch to seal fur, depends on what you can afford rather than the materials themselves. The biggest issue is whether the bow is center-cut, past center or before-center. You'll need to build up a bit of material on the side of the riser in order to tune your arrows, which will take some time to play with and get right, but that's the only complication I've noted. Just a matter of try something and see if it works. _________________ "For I have drawn Judah taut and applied [My hand] to Ephraim as to a bow." Zech. 9:13 http://www.freenations.freeuk.com/ http://www.melaniephillips.com/

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Bow: Quinn Comet XL, Grozer Horsebow, KG ELB, Two Rivers R/D
Sight: DAS Kinetic SRF
Arrows: Easton X7 Eclipse 1916's, GT XT Hunter 3555's
Accesories: Sims SRS stab, enhancer & Limbsavers; Dawgware side-quiver

Awaiting MBLLC Phoenix bow

Milvus
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Posts: 1
Location: NE England

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: shelf covering

Until recently I have used calf hair which usually comes with a sticky back from most traditional archery stores, try Flybow. I now use Velcro, yes Velcro, buy a strip of stickyback inch wide Velcro, cut a piece of suitable size from the smooth side and stick on your shelf, works a treat and is a lot cheaper than calf hair and lasts longer.

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chrispmoore
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:50 pm Post subject:

Can you elaborate on cut center/past/before please? Liking the velcro idea. Guy at my club showed me a seal fur one and mentioned snake skin. He was all about how great it was - but funny thing; I was more on target and grouping better on the range than he was that day. Goes to show how one assumes the best makes the best but not always

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segolden
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Location: Willcox, Arizona, USA

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:12 pm Post subject:

Hold up your bow and look at it from along the string, which for this purpose I'll refer to as the center line. Most bows today have a "window" cut out of the riser, allowing the arrow shaft to rest more of less near the vertical center line of the bow on a shelf, as you look out along the shaft. Many metal or alloy risers have a very large window which, if there wasn't an adjustable rest mounted through the riser, would allow the shaft to lay at an angle past the centerline. More traditional recurves, flatbows and longbows either have a narrower shelf or no shelf at all, like the classic selfbows and English longbows. Generally, the closer the arrow shaft lays in line with the center of the riser and string (center-cut), the less problems tuning the arrow, and the less flexing (archer's parallax) the arrow does when the string is released. _________________ "For I have drawn Judah taut and applied [My hand] to Ephraim as to a bow." Zech. 9:13 http://www.freenations.freeuk.com/ http://www.melaniephillips.com/

chrispmoore
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Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:

I've started shooting off the shelf as of today. I built up the shelf a little using a small piece of electrical wire under the material on both the shelf and the vertical of the riser (as suggested by the man in Wales archery who I asked about it). I adjusted the nock point to account for the arrow sitting lower than it used to in the rest (only needed to go about 1/8-2/8 inch lower). But every shot now hits at more of a downward angle and definitely leaves the bow with more wobble than previously. Is this just something I'll start adjusting for myself in time, or have I made some error in the process of making the change?

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Dawn
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Location: Long Eaton, Derbyshire

Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject:

Hi chrispmoore It sound like your arrow wobble is up and down which may be caused by your nocking point being too high or too low, (from what you say I would think its a bit too high) try putting a temporary nocking point on and try it, this way you can keep moving it slightly until your arrows are flying straight, a good way to do this is use something like insulation tape and just put one nocking point above your arrow nock. When you are happy with where it is then put your usual nocking point on your string. Another thing is are you using feather fletchings ? If you shoot off the shelf feather fletchings collapse as they pass the bow riser, plastic don't and can cause this problem. Hope this helps _________________ aka Cherrie Secretary Black Arrow Field Archery Club

Club: Black Arrow FAC & Duvelle Bowmen
Bow: Marksman KG1 with nice blue riser
Sight: need glasses to read
Arrows: ACC
Accesories: stabiliser

Samick AFB with wood & feather arrows

geoffretired
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:02 am Post subject:

Many years ago , I was told that some archers used part of the head of a toothbrush. It was stuck on with the bristles pointing upwards and the lengths trimmed to give a shallow V. As they come in different stiffnesses there will be opportunity for experiment.

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chrispmoore
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:40 am Post subject:

I am using plastic fletchings. I can see the lower flexability in them could cause a slight bounce as they pass. Was hoping the cord under the leather shelf was high enough to cause minimum contact of fletching to shelf on the pass through. I might need to build it up some more or maybe switch to the velcro idea as the hairs on the velcro should provide some extra height without making it too hard. I'll try a lower nock too. I must have been using the T-square tool incorrectly. How does one use it?

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Desert Archer
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Location: Mesa, Arizona USA

Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:

segolden wrote:

A rest requires the bow be always vertical when drawn, otherwise any cant may throw arrows right or left unpredictably.

Sorry segolden but that's just not true. I shoot with a magnetic rest and plunger and can't my bow all the time.

Vanes and shooting off the shelf just do not mix. You are getting interference from the vane hitting the bow's shelf. Go to feathers or back to an elevated rest, one or the other.

Dave

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Barebow Recurve Shooter
Bring Back Field Archery

Club: Usery Mountain Archers, Papago FITA Archers, Arizona Bowhunter & Field Archery Association
Bow: 2 Spigarellis, 2 Best of Italy, 1 Bernardini Nilo (in route)
Sight: Barebow Recurve
Arrows: All are aluminum/carbon Eastons.
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Dawn
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject:

chrispmoore wrote:

I am using plastic fletchings. I can see the lower flexability in them could cause a slight bounce as they pass. Was hoping the cord under the leather shelf was high enough to cause minimum contact of fletching to shelf on the pass through. I might need to build it up some more or maybe switch to the velcro idea as the hairs on the velcro should provide some extra height without making it too hard.

I'll try a lower nock too. I must have been using the T-square tool incorrectly. How does one use it?

You are not necessarily using the T-square incorrectly, use it as a guide then adjust slightly to get the best result for you and your equipment

As Desert Archer said if you are using plastic fletchings you really need to use an arrow rest, shooting off the shelf really only works with feathers

_________________
aka Cherrie
Secretary Black Arrow Field Archery Club

Club: Black Arrow FAC & Duvelle Bowmen
Bow: Marksman KG1 with nice blue riser
Sight: need glasses to read
Arrows: ACC
Accesories: stabiliser

Samick AFB with wood & feather arrows

chrispmoore
Cub Poster

Posts: 27
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject:

Well thats annoying then. I was looking forward to being able to have more maneuverability by shooting off the shelf. And nocking the arrows felt so much smoother and faster without the rest. I've got 36 Jazz arrows, and have never been keen on switching to wood or making them myself. The guys at my club (well, former club as havent had time to get out there so I didnt renew this year yet) didnt mention arrow type with shelf shooting - bugger. Maybe I should switch to a higher grade rest? I have incredibly limited knowledge on rests as always hoped to switch.

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Dawn
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Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:02 pm Post subject:

chrispmoore wrote:

Well thats annoying then. I was looking forward to being able to have more maneuverability by shooting off the shelf. And nocking the arrows felt so much smoother and faster without the rest. I've got 36 Jazz arrows, and have never been keen on switching to wood or making them myself.

The guys at my club (well, former club as havent had time to get out there so I didnt renew this year yet) didnt mention arrow type with shelf shooting - bugger.

Maybe I should switch to a higher grade rest? I have incredibly limited knowledge on rests as always hoped to switch.

No reason you cant put feathers on your Jazz arrows, maybe try changing say 6 arrows to feather fletching and try them

If you do decide to go for an arrow rest look at Quicks for ideas
http://www.quicks.com/pdf/pdf28to46.pdf page 30

Keep it simple, less to go wrong, pay no more than £4. I have used the ZL81 Spigarelli flip for many years and find it works well for me and last a good while too

Hope this helps you a bit, and do keep letting us know how you are getting on

_________________
aka Cherrie
Secretary Black Arrow Field Archery Club

Club: Black Arrow FAC & Duvelle Bowmen
Bow: Marksman KG1 with nice blue riser
Sight: need glasses to read
Arrows: ACC
Accesories: stabiliser

Samick AFB with wood & feather arrows

chrispmoore
Cub Poster

Posts: 27
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:12 am Post subject:

How does the ZL81 Spigarelli flip attach? Only having had the basic cartel one whihc is sticky tape style, I would assume the threaded hole in my riser is the attachment point for a rest, but the ZL81 Spigarelli flip doesnt look like it has a screw mechanism.

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Dawn
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:05 pm Post subject:

Hi Chrispmoore sorry if I have confused you The ZL81 Spigarelli flip is stuck on with double sided sticky tape as are most of the other rests, the hole in the bow riser is for a button or rest and button combined. On my recurve I use the ZL81 with the metal support (with the sticky tape on) under the spring that supports the arrow, this is fitted so the spring sits just below the hole in the riser, there is only the thin spring in contact with the arrow. I also have a button which keeps my arrow the correct distance from the upright part of the riser, buttons are adjustable to line up your arrow but also they are spring loaded and the amount of pressure is also adjustable, you do not have to use a button you can line your arrow up by padding out the riser as I think you have already done Hope this makes sense and is useful to you _________________ aka Cherrie Secretary Black Arrow Field Archery Club

Club: Black Arrow FAC & Duvelle Bowmen
Bow: Marksman KG1 with nice blue riser
Sight: need glasses to read
Arrows: ACC
Accesories: stabiliser

Samick AFB with wood & feather arrows