How long is too long?

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Jabberwocky
Bowman

Posts: 275
Club Committee Member
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:20 pm Post subject: How long is too long?

When shooting compound or freestyle (and the other disciplines for that matter) distance judgment plays is a major part in the whole process. However I have often heard people complaining that some people take too long in this process and get quite animated about the whole subject. I believe that in FITA field there is a time limit of 4 minutes for an archer to complete there shot, but I am unable to find any NFAS ruling about the matter. So the questions that I have for you are: What time limit do you think is appropriate? Should NFAS should introduce a time limit (if there is not already one (if there is what is it?))? If a time limit were introduced what penalties should be imposed?

Club: Wolverhampton C of A and Severn Valley Yeoman Foresters
Bow: Samick Masters(target), Mathews Switchback(field)
Sight: Sure Loc
Arrows: X10 (target) ACC Superlite (field)
Accesories: Lots of Beiter Stuff

Ratfighter
Global Moderator

Posts: 774
Staff Shooter
Location: the Ratcave

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject:

Jaberwocky, Is this post as a result of an issue that may have occurred over the last weekend? Is this as a result of a personal experience or just something you wondered about? Can I also pose another question. 4 unsighted archers all blank a target, how long would you consider unreasonable to search for 12 arrows? Can I pose another question, In other disciplines you rotate in a strict order, therefore the last archer has the combined time it has take for the remainder of the group to shoot to consider his shot. Is it fair for other archers to persistently stand back and let the same person shoot first? Shouldn't the first archer be allowed the same opportunity as the last to make his judgement? _________________ MERLIN ARCHERY CLUB GETTING RATTIER BY THE MINUTE

Club: Merlin Archery Club
Bow: Merlin XS x2
Sight: Axcel 3000 Viper Scope
Arrows: Navigators & Gold Tip Ultralight Pro's
Accesories: Apollo launcher, CC Porter release, Merlin Triad stabiliser

Bows now sporting my own strings!!!! yummy!!

Jabberwocky
Bowman

Posts: 275
Club Committee Member
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject:

Hi Ratfighter, No, it's not about any particular incident just something that I was thinking about at the weekend. I used short FT air rifle and they have a (if I remember correctly) 2 min time limit to PA and make your shot. I usually get most of my shots away in about 1 minute or so after contemplating the distance. If I spend too long thinking about the distance I often convince myself that my first guess was wrong when it is usually correct. I did actually try a bit of and experiment racing round a course and literally giving myself about 5-10 seconds to make a decision and get on with the shot. The resulting score was down but not that much different to when I take my time. So I am just wondering what other peoples opinions are

Jabberwocky
Bowman

Posts: 275
Club Committee Member
Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject:

In reply to your two questions I believe that there should be a time limit on how long you should look for missing arrows, around 3 minutes does not seem too unreasonable. After all they are not going to walk away so you can always make a note of the target and where you think you missed and then after a shoot clear it with the organizer to go back and have another look or leave contact details in case anyone else finds them. As for rotating everyone in the group for each target I completely agree. If I go round a course with my friends in practice then we always rotate the order we shoot. I just seems the most fair way of doing things and stops people who have made their shot first getting fed up waiting for the others all the time, but also as you say gives the last shooter the opportunity to contemplate the shot a little more than normal.

Ratfighter
Global Moderator

Posts: 774
Staff Shooter
Location: the Ratcave

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:30 pm Post subject:

ok so as long as it wasn't anything to do with last Sunday, here are my thoughts. Any time limit can only be enforced by peer pressure and even then, with no rule to enforce, it would be impossible From when do you start timing? Would the time start from the first shot and keep ticking for the remainder? If so, some shots would have you running down slippy banks just to have a chance to shoot? Archer 1 takes three shots and finds themselves 25 yards from the red peg. Does Archer 2's time start from Archer 1's last shot or does it start from when the return to a nominated safe point?. That could easily account for 2 minutes depending on terrain. Archer 1 has an issue with Archer 2 and deliberately takes their time, preventing Archer 2 from a fair chance to shoot. Or The target is say 50 yards away, largely obscured by a rise in the terrain. the red peg is in a hollow. Archer 1 is 5' 0"and can see nothing of the target. In my opinion, it is only right for the archer to take their time to evaluate, step to one side etc to get the best idea of what to shoot. Doing this against a clock could end up with serious implications. So whilst I can understand why a time limit has merit, I equally understand why it can be a bad thing. A well thought out course will reward with quicker shooting. Start putting out unnecessarily difficult shots or a series of short into a series of long and then the time taken does become an issue. Personally I don't subscribe to a call for a time limit, You are there to compete, there are a number of unique issues associated with the NFAS, unmarked distance, terrain, lack of clear avenues, waiting for preceding groups to reach a safe point on unchartered courses, that all have a bearing and cannot be factored in. I personally don't take too long to judge a distance and usually have the rough guess set on my sight before I get to the peg, and just hav e aquick check I haven't missed anything, 90% of the time I go with my original calculation and rarely I take a second shot, so all my peg time usually put into 1 effort. Others do take more time, it is a criticism that has been levelled at us in the past, I would argue that the results speak for themselves and if others took the time to judge the shot, they might also achieve better results. I have in the past suggested that we should enforce rotation of shooting order rather that the highest scorer goes first and have received responses that it would make us like the EFAA. So I guess time limits would make us just like FITA. _________________ MERLIN ARCHERY CLUB GETTING RATTIER BY THE MINUTE

jamesr
Cub Poster

Posts: 8
No Commercial Interest

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject:

As a longbow archer, and a fairly novice one at that , I spend more time than some looking for lost arrows. However, i tend to let common sense dictate how long to spend on this. If there's a queue of people behind us waiting to shoot, I'll not linger too long and just note it down & hope it turns up later. But if there's no-one behind us, or a queue ahead of us, i don't see it as a problem to take a bit longer to search. I think trying to impose rules on this would be nigh on impossible. (Besides, the sarcastic comments from waiting archers are usually more than enough to move things along swiftly )

Club: NFAS - Westcott / GNAS - BoB
Bow: 40lb bamboo-backed longbow
Sight:
Arrows: 12 of them, at last count
Accesories:

Also shoot a Hoyt Nexus / KAP limbs, XX75 arrows

zetabow
Apprentice Bowman

Posts: 153
Commercial Coach
Location: Tallinn, Estonia

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:19 pm Post subject:

Think IBO have time limit of around 5min for whole group once first person steps up to the peg, IFAA dont have a time limit but recent International competitions they just said shooting stops at 6pm, funny that every one seemed to complete in the given time limit. At the recent Estonian field champs the sighted archers started 2hours before the un-sighted archers, we all finished at the same time, that worked quite nicely.

Club: kajamaa
Bow: 21st Century, Blackbrook, Saluki
Sight:
Arrows: POC
Accesories:

Saluki IbexTurk, 21st Century

BTS
Apprentice Bowman

Posts: 119
No Commercial Interest
Location: Nottingham England

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject:

Things are probably best left where they are. IMHO it shouldn't take long for an archer using a sight to make an estimate, adjust the sight & shoot the arrow. _________________ BAZZ

Club: Burton Joyce Archers & Black Arrow FAC
Bow: OK Match + Merlin TM5 Comp..
Sight: K Sight + Shibuya Ultima Carbon Compound Sight
Arrows: X7's & AFC Exacta+ Easton 3-28/500 A/C/C's
Accesories: all sorts

old KG1 in cupboard bottom!

corbarwolf
Apprentice Bowman

Posts: 166
No Commercial Interest
Location: Derby

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:17 pm Post subject:

How long is too long? When the light has gone. You cannot impose time constraints in NFAS, it is totally impractical, Ratty has provided some examples. There are plenty more, but it will not alter the fact that there would need to be an enforcement officer with clear guidelines on what is and isn't allowed......never going to happen. Zetabow has given an interesting snippet on sighted archers starting 2 hours earlier and finishing at the same time as the rest..............Not being there it means nothing. Were there twice as many sighted archers? Was it the same peg set-out?..etc...etc Funnily enough i have heard opposite arguments for unsighted archers holding up proceedings....more arrows? digging time..etc. We were at a shoot recently and we 4 unsighted archers were behind 4 sighted archers.........were they slower than we could have been.........we shall never know, we never jumped then. But we did spend the time talking to each other and had thoroughly good day. Result, held up?..yes.........knocked off form?..maybe............bothered about it?..on reflection,...no! P.S. The group behind us, included an NFAS exec. who got jumped at one point by 4 or 5 groups, all equally peaved. Now i stop thinking about it!! Just my thoughts

Club: Independant
Bow: AFB 50# Longbow Bickerstaffe 50#
Sight: Questionable
Arrows: Straight ones, when I remember to check
Accesories: My Daughter

woozle
Junior Poster

Posts: 65
No Commercial Interest
Location: hampshire

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:03 am Post subject:

Some days as a club we all spend time finding the green scores. It comes down to the who is shooting what and how good they are on the day, you all have to give and let live, get out the detectors! We have to be aware of how bad a bad day gets. Timing out for lost arrows must come down to who blows the whistle?. _________________ I may not hit much but .... I LOOK DAMN GOOD!.

Club: talisman bowmen
Bow: win & win
Sight: bifocal
Arrows: pointy
Accesories:

wife, daughter & grand daughter

Ratfighter
Global Moderator

Posts: 774
Staff Shooter
Location: the Ratcave

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject:

woozle wrote:

Some days as a club we all spend time finding the green scores. It comes down to the who is shooting what and how good they are on the day, you all have to give and let live, get out the detectors! We have to be aware of how bad a bad day gets. Timing out for lost arrows must come down to who blows the whistle?.

I completely agree, so the frustrations are there for both sides, those that wait for someone to loose the arrow and those that wait for someone to lose the arrow. I regard a day out shooting as just that, a day out not a race to get to the finish.

_________________
MERLIN ARCHERY CLUB

GETTING RATTIER BY THE MINUTE

dante
Cub Poster

Posts: 3
No Commercial Interest
Location: Reading

Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject:

As a longbow Archery I don't tend to spend to long guesstimating distance, it's more instinctive, but then again until I get my eye in on the day I spend longer looking for arrows So given this is it not just a case of Swings and roundabouts. Our sighted friends spend longer at the peg but generally less time in the undergrowth so personally I am for leaving things as they are at the moment and hence am against time limits. As long a the sighted archers can take some ribbing for the time they take as I take it for the time spent looking for arrows then all works fine. As an aside if anyone is interested in a shoot review for the July Westcotte then I have one here are not allowed to post clickable links untill they have made 5 posts - this is to prevent spam bots spamming the forums. and this was a fun day in a mixed group.

Club:
Bow: Bickerstaffe Warbow
Sight: Hindsight
Arrows: Pine / Ash 11/32
Accesories:

Bickerstaffe Longbow